Curse

Beat_Go_Stick · May 24, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Yes, but likewise a good monk will be able to counter all of that. In summary, Luxon + monk = 600 faction, Kurzick + monk = it depends!

And needless to say there are countless games where you don't get monks.

That's because it's Kurzick + "Charge!" Warrior = 600 Faction.

generik · May 24, 2006, 10:58 PM // 22:58

"Coward!" x 4 = death warrior

That said I switched sides yesterday and started on the Luxon side as a monk, out of 9 games we only lost one, and that one was when they bonded the gate NPCs and we have no degen on ours.

Fast faction, easy, no grief.

Ironically even the heavy degen builds that I personally use when I'm with the Kurzicks look so pathetic when I am monking.

Symbol · May 25, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19

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While my personal expereinces in this mission are obvously anecdotal, I have played many many battles and not found it to be biased toward the Luxons, which is the same standard most others here are using to judge. I should probably plot wins/losses the next 100 battles I play, assuming player quality on both sides follows a normal distribution, maybe I could see who is winning/losing more. Up to this point, the Kurzicks have won more from my experience.

That would be a good experiment. As it is I've played this mission too many times to count, and my impression is that Luxon's have a distinctive edge, esp when the team composition on the Kurzick side doesn't have a healer.

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A good amber runner build, or a bonder to protect Kurzick NPCs, also does not require team coordiantion - just a smart player who enters randomly.

Right, but the Kurzicks need a devoted amber runner far more than Luxons need someone devoted to stop them from taking amber. Most of that they can accomplish that just fine by denying the mines, which they can do just fine by keeping them pinned in the base with the turtle, which they can do just by attacking.

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I find the scenario to be balanced just fine for random teams.

*shrugs*. The profusion of people coming forth with "a smart player could do x", or "people should bring y" for the Kurzicks while you see no such strategies required for the Luxons is a dead giveaway that something's wrong.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 25, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

*shrugs*. The profusion of people coming forth with "a smart player could do x", or "people should bring y" for the Kurzicks while you see no such strategies required for the Luxons is a dead giveaway that something's wrong.

People are giving Kurzick strategies because the same 3 people are whining about the imbalance favouring Luxons. Why the hell would people give you Luxon strategy tips when you're adamant that they have an advantage? You obviously don't need tips on Luxon battles since you think they always win. Geezus...think man.

Symbol · May 25, 2006, 03:12 AM // 03:12

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People are giving Kurzick strategies because the same 3 people are whining about the imbalance favouring Luxons. Why the hell would people give you Luxon strategy tips when you're adamant that they have an advantage? You obviously don't need tips on Luxon battles since you think they always win.

Why would people give me Luxon strategy tips? Perhaps because I've, you know, repeatedly asked them to show me what Luxon strategy is required? I mean, I've already listed some of things that Kurzicks need to do to win. These things take at least a modicum of planning and coordination. Why is there no equivalent on the Luxon side?

Again, what strategy do the Luxons need to win? No more hand waving bullshit from you, I want specifics.

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Geezus...think man.

I did, and I came to the conclusion that you're wasting my time.

Former Ruling · May 25, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

I"ve played Fort 3 times.

Kurzicks have DOMINATED without even having to try....3 times.

Played CripShot Ranger.

Seef II · May 25, 2006, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Just won one, just lost one (Kurzick). Really depends if your team knows what they're doing or not.

Ninna · May 25, 2006, 11:17 AM // 11:17

monks make winning easier on both sides - but you dont need a monk

I agree Kurzik defense needs more tactics
(many people do not take out the turtle healing monks or MMs)

I've also seen my teammates leave the base defenseless and "just run amber" and go on the offensive and take Command Posts
(Ive ALWAYS LOST those)

I like the challenge in defending but winning is about teamwork and DEFENDING than anything else

torquemada · May 25, 2006, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Hmm...played some. Won some. Lost some.

I'd not go as far as to say that Ft. Aspenwood is unbalaced.

I agree wholeheartedly that problem is in random teams, though. Let's say both conflicting teams are way baad, both Luxon and Kurzick. Guess who'll win out? Luxon.

All you have to do to win really is to attack (already mentioned)...not even defending their turtles. Coz 4xCovard thumper's will take care of any opposing n00bs that come thru. It's fairly easy to retake amber mines with a decent split while the other side still supports the blasted turtle. Retaking it will be a strain for Kurzick runner only and will need support (which will be sorely missed on the gates). And respawning Luxons will be able to foil that plan while in the same time pushing thru defenses.

IF the both teams suck, all chances are Luxons will prevail. IF both teams are good, chances are pretty equal, and for that reason I wouldn't call Aspenwood unbalanced.

Theus · May 25, 2006, 12:48 PM // 12:48

I just want the removal of the Luxon warriors.

So that the luxons will at least have to do something other than kill the nearest blue opponent.They should at least have to guard the turtles.

Ninna · May 25, 2006, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by torquemada

I'd not go as far as to say that Ft. Aspenwood is unbalanced.

I agree wholeheartedly that problem is in random teams, though. Let's say both conflicting teams are way baad, both Luxon and Kurzick.

Guess who'll win out? Luxon.

bring up a good point
-- less tactics are needed by the offensive

generik · May 25, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

I just want the removal of the Luxon warriors.

So that the luxons will at least have to do something other than kill the nearest blue opponent.They should at least have to guard the turtles.

Hmm, actually playing a bit more on that map on a Luxon I have seen some impressive strats from the Kurzick side too, so I guess it is not all that impossible to defend

Symbol · May 25, 2006, 04:14 PM // 16:14

It's not impossible to defend. I'll go so far as to say that with the right builds and moderately competent teammates it's pretty easy. But how often do you get that?

ManaCraft · May 25, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Having played at Fort Aspenwood quite a bit as both Kurzick and Luxon (though mostly Kurzick), I'd say that team composition is definitely what has the biggest impact on which side takes the battle. An obvious observation perhaps, but also equally true. If the Luxon team has a talented healer lending backup to a turtle squad, it's likely a win for the Luxons. If they also have a somewhat decent minion necro, it's all but a sure win.

For some reason I find it's not really possible to get equally "lucky" on the kurzick side. There are no builds that will all but assure victory for your team (as there shouldn't be). Bonding is perhaps what comes closest, and I've played one quite a few times, but ultimately it's a gimmick build that falls to just about any decent enchantment removal. It really often comes down to whether the Luxon side has healers or not. If they do, they can defend their turtles very effectively. They don't even have to lend all that much offensive power to the battlefield themselves, the turtle and the four "Coward!" spamming warriors take care of a surprising amount of the action. The Luxons win the NPC war by default, and then some, without lending any support themselves. Defending the turtles also effectively shuts down Kurzick amber runners, without actually putting any effort into defending the mine itself, given that a turtle squad parked in the middle of the hallway will often cut off the runner's return route.

For my part it's still too early to tell whether the map is imbalanced or not. But I will say that Luxon is definitely the easier side to play.

- Mana

Khift · May 25, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

The problem with Fort Aspenwood is that it is simultanously too random and too complex.

When something is both too random and too complex it becomes too frustrating, which leads to calls for nerfs because of observed imbalances.

Well, there is an imbalance, and it isn't on either side, it's on the very concept of it.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 27, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Why would people give me Luxon strategy tips? Perhaps because I've, you know, repeatedly asked them to show me what Luxon strategy is required? I mean, I've already listed some of things that Kurzicks need to do to win. These things take at least a modicum of planning and coordination. Why is there no equivalent on the Luxon side?

Again, what strategy do the Luxons need to win? No more hand waving bullshit from you, I want specifics.

I did, and I came to the conclusion that you're wasting my time.

So you're saying that having more strategic options is a bad thing?! What the? Hand waving BS? Why dont you learn to play better before you call anything BS?

As for Luxon strategies, some are in common with Kurzick strategies as well. Focus on NPCs rather than opposing players. Protect your own NPCs at the mine and your turtle. Trap the gates and mines so that runners are snared. Bring enchantment removal for those pesky bonding monks. Bring mostly offensive skills. Etc etc.

I've been playing on the Kurzick sidea lot more lately because I need amber and I still shake my head at you whining about the imbalance. It was so damn fun trapping all over the base and the mines. The Luxon warriors were ridiculously easy to kill with traps. They just walk into them.

This is a very well balanced mission. They really did it right and it's damn fun on either side....as long as you have people who arent clueless. Now can we stop the cries of imbalance already?

Symbol · May 27, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

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So you're saying that having more strategic options is a bad thing?! What the? Hand waving BS? Why dont you learn to play better before you call anything BS?

I play just fine. I'm calling your habit of declaring anyone who doesn't agree that the scenario is totally balanced a scrub who needs to learn strategy bullshit.

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As for Luxon strategies, some are in common with Kurzick strategies as well. Focus on NPCs rather than opposing players.

Lol, you don't need to do any such thing. The turtle will drop kurzick softies in 2 hits. This is actually counterproductive since opposing players are the only real threat to your turtle.

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Protect your own NPCs at the mine and your turtle.

What are you talking about? Since when are you in a position to protect your NPCs as a luxon? All you need to do is keep pushing. If they Kurzicks take a command post or a mine, no big deal, you can take it back easily when you respawn.

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Trap the gates and mines so that runners are snared.

I have never ever seen Luxons do this. Why bother when you have control of the entrance most of the time anyway.

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Bring enchantment removal for those pesky bonding monks. Bring mostly offensive skills. Etc etc.

Enchantment removal is the only sensible thing you've said so far.

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I've been playing on the Kurzick sidea lot more lately because I need amber and I still shake my head at you whining about the imbalance. It was so damn fun trapping all over the base and the mines. The Luxon warriors were ridiculously easy to kill with traps. They just walk into them.

I like playing the mission. That doesn't mean I think it's perfectly balanced. . If anything, the only one whining is you, and given the nonsensical "strategies" you've listed above I think you're better served by shutting up about how Kurzick players need to "LEARNS TEH STRATEGERY".

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They really did it right and it's damn fun on either side....as long as you have people who arent clueless.

You got that half right

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Now can we stop the cries of imbalance already?

No. If you don't like it, you can stop reading the thread.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 27, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

First you cry about how no one is giving Luxon strategies because there are supposedly none. Then I give a few, which by the way, I never said is the ONLY way to do things, and you dismiss it all.

If you can't use those strategies and tips, that's fine. But dont cry about how there isnt a plan or organization to Luxon play as well. I'll say it again, learn to play. Even the players on the Kurzick side laughed when I mentioned that there are some that were whining about this imbalance.

Symbol · May 27, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

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First you cry about how no one is giving Luxon strategies because there are supposedly none. Then I give a few, which by the way, I never said is the ONLY way to do things, and you dismiss it all.

Your strategies are weak. Most of them aren't necessary and one is just downright _bad_. Don't whine when I point that out.

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But dont cry about how there isnt a plan or organization to Luxon play as well. I'll say it again, learn to play. Even the players on the Kurzick side laughed when I mentioned that there are some that were whining about this imbalance.

You can keep repeating yourself. That doesn't make you any more correct. The _point_, which I apparently have to keep hammering into your head, is that Luxons don't _need_ to do any of those things to win. Bringing enchant removal or snaring amber runners _helps_ in a close game, but by and large they aren't _required_.

On the other hand all those things I listed for Kurzicks? You _have_ to do them unless your individual players completely outclass the ones on the other side.

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Even the players on the Kurzick side laughed when I mentioned that there are some that were whining about this imbalance.

Really? I see a fair amount of Kurzicks saying the same thing I am.

ChildeOfMalkav · May 27, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Lol. Still bitching about this? Hey symbol if you think the strats are bad then how is Gnome still winning his battles? You must suck badly if he can use his bad strats and still win and you can't.

I am a kurzick and I win more than I lose. I see no other Kurz's bitching about this other than a very few like you. When the amount of good Kurzick players = good Lux players, Kurzicks still have an advantage because all you need to do is cause a stalemate and hold out. Ask yourself what you are doing wrong.